Helen Grus
Day 3 · September 10, 2026 · 0:41:40
Key points Helen Grus, an Ottawa Police detective since 2003, worked in the Sexual Assault Child Abuse (SACA) unit investigating sudden unexplained deaths of children under five. She says a colleague alerted her in January 2022 to a doubling or tripling of unexplained baby deaths, and querying records she found six confirmed cases versus the usual two or three. She raised the concern with then-Chief Peter Sloly, noting vaccination was the one thing that had changed, while stressing she was not drawing conclusions. She says two babies collapsed and died in their parents' arms after being sent home healthy, and one had an enlarged heart, which she found alarming. She was sent home without pay in February 2022, suspended days later for accessing records, and charged with discreditable conduct. After a five-week tribunal she was found guilty and demoted from first-class to second-class detective, a penalty she calls the most severe short of dismissal. She maintains a criminal investigation into possible negligence should occur, citing disclosure that five babies' listed causes of death appear in Pfizer's side-effect documents.
Speaker 4
0:01 So our next witness, are you still constable? Speaker 1
0:06 Detective, as I like to say now. Speaker 4
0:09 Okay. 0:09 Oh, yes. 0:10 Well, that'll be part of the story. Speaker 4
0:13 So just write that down. 0:16 Second class. 0:21 So our next witness is Constable Helen Bruce of the Ottawa Police Department. 0:26 Helen, will you take the Bible in your right hand? 0:30 So Constable Helen Gruss, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? 0:35 So help me God. Speaker 4
0:38 Can you share with us, obviously everyone already knows that you're with the Ottawa Police Force, but can you share with us just a little bit of your history as a police officer? Speaker 1
0:48 Yes, I've been a police officer since 2003. 0:51 I was hired on, I spent several years on patrol, doing patrol things, you know, catching speeders and responding to 911 calls. 0:59 In 2007, I moved into a general investigative unit where we investigate everything from shop theft to attempt homicide. 1:09 It's a wide range of investigations. 1:11 A lot of sudden deaths that we attend there because we catch everything that's not a homicide in our general investigations. 1:18 2016, I was moved into the sexual assault child abuse unit. 1:24 SACA is the acronym. 1:27 And 1:28 I'm currently, I was there until 2022 and I'm, since 2022, I've been in the Ottawa Police Robbery Unit as a detective. Speaker 4
1:36 Right, yeah, you got moved out in 2022, but this unit that you moved into in 2017, part of its responsibility would be investigating any unusual deaths, including baby deaths or infant deaths. Speaker 1
1:53 That's correct. 1:54 So SACA, in that unit, 1:57 It stands for sexual assault, child abuse, so all sexual assaults and child abuse. 2:01 And then all sudden unexplained, unexpected deaths and children under five years old would come to our unit. 2:08 And we'd partner up with one homicide detective and investigate those cases. Speaker 4
2:12 Right. 2:13 So I think the important thing for people to understand is, so it's your specific job to look into things like baby deaths that are unexplained. Speaker 1
2:24 Absolutely. 2:24 Absolutely. 2:26 We look into every single baby death that happens outside of the hospital. 2:32 Police look into every death that occurs outside of the hospital. 2:35 In SACA specifically, baby deaths up until children to five years old. Speaker 4
2:40 Okay. 2:41 And that's, I mean, these are our most vulnerable people. 2:44 And it would seem, it just seems to me that it makes sense to have a unit tasked to investigate, you know, unexplained baby deaths. 2:53 If they're in the hospital, there's going to be a medical... 2:56 reason given. 2:57 So, you know, any sudden death or unexplained death, a drowning, SIDS, whatever, you guys are investigating it to make sure that there's nothing unusual happening. Speaker 1
3:08 That's correct. Speaker 4
3:09 Okay. 3:10 Now, COVID hits, what happens? Speaker 1
3:16 So COVID hits and... Let me ask you this question. Speaker 4
3:21 Did you see any unusual pattern of infant death 3:25 when COVID hit pre-vaccine? Speaker 1
3:31 No, so the first time that I was alerted to anything out of ordinary was in January 2022. 3:39 So it was COVID hit March 2020, the pandemic was called. 3:46 Moving forward, December 2020 is when the vaccines were approved in the world, if I get some dates off. 3:51 But I know in May 2021, NACI actually 3:54 recommended the mRNA vaccinations to pregnant and breastfeeding mothers, stating they're safe and effective for mothers who are either pregnant or breastfeeding. 4:07 And it was January 2022 when a colleague of mine in the SACA unit came to me with concerns saying, Helen, I don't know what's going on, but there's been a doubling or tripling of baby deaths in the last year. 4:20 And so we were concerned, not just I, but other officers, detectives in our unit. 4:27 And a couple of days later, I had a town hall meeting with then police chief Peter Slowly. 4:33 there were pending mandates at the Ottawa police service because they had implemented a vaccination policy that if you were not fully vaccinated by the end of January or declared your status, you would be sent home on leave without pay February 1st, 2022. 4:49 So we had a meeting a couple of days after this colleague came to me and that day before going into this town hall meeting with the chief, I actually went into our records management system to 5:02 query the data to see if in fact we had a doubling or tripling of baby deaths, unexplained baby deaths, because that was resting on my shoulders. 5:10 That worried me. 5:11 It's a huge concern. 5:12 Even one loss of a baby is tragic. 5:16 So when I went into the system, we went normally from two to three unexplained baby deaths. 5:20 There's a difference between unexplained and the ones that end up being explained as a choking or unexpected smothering when a parent is co-sleeping and they lay down on the baby accidentally. 5:31 So unexplained baby deaths are the unexplained medical conditions where you put the baby to sleep in bed, doesn't wake up. 5:40 So going into this meeting, I queried the data. 5:42 In fact, I had seen that there had been seven cases came up. 5:46 I was able to look into six of them. 5:48 One of them was privatized. 5:50 And so, again, that number, I went in there, made sure I was not counting a choking or a smothering or a drowning case. 5:58 And so I end up with this number of six confirmed cases. 6:01 I thought, well, it is a doubling, tripling, depending if you're looking at two a year or three a year in the past. 6:07 And I brought that up to the chief of police. 6:09 And there were a couple other executive for health and safety was there as well. 6:14 And I explained just I said, I'm not here to make conclusions because I don't know what causes babies to die at this time. 6:24 But we have had an increase. 6:26 There's one thing that has changed. 6:28 It's the vaccination that came out last year. 6:31 But again, I was very clear to say, I don't know if that's what it is, but we need to flag this and keep track of it. 6:40 I also, when I had gone into those records, I had seen that a couple of cases were not concluded thoroughly. 6:46 When we investigate sudden unexpected deaths in infants, there's what's called a SUTI questionnaire in Ontario. 6:52 It was put together with the coroner's and pathologist's office. 6:55 It's a series. 6:56 There's over 100, well over 100 questions that we must ask during the course of this investigation. 7:04 So some of the cases did not have that SUTI questionnaire completed. 7:09 There's one case that had been concluded within 24 hours of the baby dying. 7:14 So no autopsy results had been received. 7:17 And that concerned me as a detective. 7:19 I've been a detective since 2007. 7:22 So just looking at this, I thought... Speaker 4
7:25 So let me just slow this down because you've been in this unit since 2017. 7:29 2016, yeah. 7:29 And I imagine that... 7:37 bore an investigation into an unexplained death of a baby, that there was kind of a certain standard that you would see amongst all the officers in the unit that were doing this. 7:46 Was there a change here in the level of investigation that was done? Speaker 1
7:52 Again, I can only... 7:55 There I'd have to speculate. 7:57 So there was no... 7:59 The policy remained. 8:00 We were supposed to complete the SUTI questionnaires. 8:05 And... 8:07 So to say that there was a change, I think it's more potentially a lack of experience with some of the officers. 8:13 And so I can't speak to, but policy had not changed. 8:19 It was her policy that the SUNY questionnaire was to be completed thoroughly by ourselves or the coroners, but the police have to ensure that that is done. 8:29 And as I said, the one case that was concluded, I was confused. 8:32 What struck me, there was an add-on to that. 8:35 There was two of these baby cases through talk in the unit that I found out that when the parents, the babies were sent home healthy, the parents picked them up to feed them and they collapsed and died in the parents' arms. 8:49 At that time, I'd been a police officer for 19 years. 8:53 I had never heard of that as a police officer. 8:58 So in that career time that I had, 9:02 It's those two weeks that I lost sleep because something was wrong. 9:09 I had told the chief of police on January 13th, 2022, I was sent home on leave without pay February 1st, 2022. 9:18 And by February 4th, I was suspended for accessing RMS records for personal reasons, allegedly, and for printing coroner reports. Speaker 4
9:31 So I just want to slow us down here. 9:36 So there's really two things that are sticking out as an investigator that are not normal. 9:43 So first of all, there's literally a doubling in the number that you would expect in the Ottawa region of babies that have died and it's unexplained. 9:54 So we already have an outlier, something that needs to be looked into. 9:58 But then in two of those, the 10:02 the parents, the baby's alive. 10:05 The parents have picked up the baby to feed and basically in the parents' arms, the baby just dies, just dies. Speaker 1
10:13 And on top of that, upon speaking with the one detective who had one of the cases, because I did speak with him a couple of times about that case, he explained that the baby had an enlarged heart. 10:25 The autopsy found that that baby had an enlarged heart. 10:29 And I had been 10:35 I found that out, but I remember it was January 17th that I tuned into a public health, a Toronto public health webinar where Mr. Dan Hartman spoke about his 17-year-old son, Sean Hartman, who had taken the Pfizer vaccine. 10:51 And I don't want to speak to too much, but I do have to, what's significant, he had taken the Pfizer vaccine of August 2021, had side effects. 10:58 September 2021, the family found him deceased in his room, 11:01 And upon autopsy, the boy had an enlarged heart. 11:04 Sean had an enlarged heart and that's what caused his sudden death. 11:08 So with this baby that was picked up, went limp and died, essentially sounds like a heart attack. 11:14 For a healthy baby to have a heart attack, again, it left me sleepless. Speaker 4
11:21 Right. 11:21 So for your entire time as a police officer, you hadn't had two weeks like that where you couldn't sleep because you are now 11:30 literally obviously coming to the belief that babies are dying and it may be connected to the COVID vaccine. Speaker 1
11:39 It may be, it may not be, but I, and to this day, I still stand that there needs to be a thorough investigation. 11:45 So when we have the one case that was concluded within 24 hours of no autopsy report being reviewed by the investigator, it was that that concerned me. 11:57 So I brought that up and it came up actually 12:01 Sorry, when I was suspended then, February 4th. Speaker 4
12:05 And you're suspended for starting to look into it. Speaker 1
12:09 For just questioning, for bringing up a concern to the chief of police. 12:13 Yeah. Speaker 4
12:15 So it's your job to look into this. 12:18 You're actually on a unit that's responsible for this. 12:22 It's a database that you're free to access at any time. 12:26 That's why you have access. Speaker 1
12:28 It's a police database that we use. 12:31 We input the information for our colleagues to share amongst each other when we're conducting investigations. 12:36 So it's our own service. 12:39 It's not a privacy breach when we access these records for the purpose of police business, which this was. 12:45 I received a concern that there's a doubling, tripling. 12:48 The stats show that there in fact was. 12:50 There was a very significant change in how two babies died. 12:58 And we've always been told as police officers, when you see something, you say something. 13:03 If you see something suspicious, you speak up. 13:07 And I did that. 13:09 So it sent a very strong message, especially during that time of COVID, that if you say something that might implicate these vaccinations, even the hint of implicating them, you better not do that. 13:24 Don't go there. 13:24 You might get suspended. Speaker 4
13:28 Right. 13:28 Well, you were actually subject to disciplinary proceedings. Speaker 1
13:36 That's correct. 13:36 So while I was on suspension, I used that time to research, to dig in. 13:42 And I had gathered some information because of the pending mandates. 13:46 I wanted to know if these vaccinations are safe or not. 13:48 I have children of my own. 13:50 So do I give them not? 13:51 I called my best friend who happens to be an RN to ask her advice. 13:55 So I've been doing some questioning. 13:58 When I was on suspension, I started reading and I collected, by the time I was brought in for my professional standards compelled interview, I had 10 binders of information or what police would call evidence. 14:10 I had the Pfizer documents, whatever I could pull from Public Health Agency of Canada. 14:16 I had also pulled different Twitter videos that our public health officials were telling everybody, including pregnant mothers and breastfeeding mothers, 14:26 that these vaccines are safe and effective. 14:29 Yet the Pfizer documents we had in our own country here showed that they had never been tested on pregnant or breastfeeding women, mothers. 14:38 There was no clinical data at that time. 14:42 So as a police officer, I'm like, how can you state that something safe and effective when you also know it's never been tested? Speaker 4
14:50 You know, I could slow you down. 14:52 I, I, 14:54 Years ago after COVID started, I was involved in a forming organization of lawyers and retired police officers to start documenting evidence of potential crimes that were being committed during COVID so that the evidence wouldn't disappear. 15:12 And so we had to look into, well, what criminal code offenses and other offenses would apply so we'd know what's relevant. 15:23 And it seems to me that the public representations being made on things like pregnancy, that those were actually issues the police should have been investigating. 15:39 How can public health officials be messaging one thing, which would be with the intention to cause certain behavior, 15:48 when those public statements that are meant to induce people to do things are false. Speaker 1
15:55 And that is what I brought forward to the start. 15:59 So my chain of command changed when I was suspended. 16:01 I was reporting to the professional standards sergeant. 16:04 And that's why I brought these 10 binders of evidence stating I wasn't conducting investigation at that time. 16:10 But now that I've had a chance on suspension to read and really dig into this, this it's concerning. 16:17 this should potentially be investigated. 16:19 Now, that was in May, May 12, 2022. 16:25 I was charged with discreditable conduct in July 2022. 16:31 I was actually offered a plea deal, just to plead guilty, and they had these bullet points on there. 16:40 I would have essentially gotten a slap on the wrist, but 16:45 what they were proposing as the statement of facts was not accurate. 16:50 It was misleading. 16:52 And I remember just saying, I can't sign this. 16:54 Then I'd be discreditable because this is not true. 16:57 This is not what happened. 16:58 As a police officer, we have a duty to be honest, to have integrity, to speak truth. 17:05 So I took it to trial. 17:08 We had an over five-week tribunal that spanned 17:13 I just received my disposition or penalty a couple weeks ago. Speaker 4
17:21 Hence the second class detective, right? Speaker 1
17:24 Yes, I've been demoted for two years, which is a very significant penalty from first class to second class. 17:32 It's the most severe penalty bar dismissal of a police officer. Speaker 4
17:38 And it'll also affect things like pension and that going on because it affects your 17:43 your earnings and it affects any ability to basically climb the ladder going forward? Speaker 1
17:49 It has already. 17:50 Just while this tribunal was going on, it's been over four and a half years where my career has been essentially stalled. 17:58 But again, I like to look at the positive. 18:00 I'm blessed. 18:01 I still have a job. 18:02 I can still serve the citizens of Ottawa investigating robberies. 18:06 But it has stalled movement in my career. 18:08 And then it will do so for the next four years because a demotion stays 18:13 on record than for another two years after that. Speaker 4
18:16 So one thing that I'm finding fascinating here is because I'm guessing that the Ottawa Police Department has still not investigated why there was a cluster of baby deaths at this time, including two where, you know, live babies just died in their parents' arms. 18:34 Are you aware of the Ottawa Police Department doing an investigation into this? Speaker 1
18:40 So I can only speak to what I found out during the course of the four and a half year tribunal. 18:46 We asked for several records. 18:48 We were denied everything and we were denied many, many requested disclosure records that we wanted with my counsel. 19:00 And so I really don't know the answer to that question, whether any of the cases were reopened and thoroughly investigated. 19:08 Again, 19:09 I would only speculate and I don't like to speculate. Speaker 4
19:12 Fair enough. 19:13 But as an outsider, I can speculate. 19:15 And I find it very interesting, responsible groups, that because your case became very public, because you weren't willing to sign a form agreeing to facts that weren't true. 19:29 And there was a lot of publicity about your case. 19:32 There's a movie about your case. 19:37 Probably everyone in the gallery knows about your case. 19:40 The MPs probably don't know about your case. 19:43 But it was meant to be an example to other officers not to step out of line. 19:50 And in fact, the response to a single officer, you, standing up and saying, no, we should actually look into COVID vaccines, has caused a change in the law. 20:02 Can you share that with us? 20:03 Because this is frightening to me as a citizen. 20:07 So can you share with us the change to the law definitely? Speaker 1
20:11 So in April 1st, 2024, there was a change. 20:15 Actually, the Police Services Act is now the Community Police Services Act of Ontario. 20:20 I don't know. 20:21 I'm not going to say it's my case that triggered this because there were changes. 20:26 This law was actually being drafted as far back as 2019, I believe, maybe even previous to that. 20:31 But prior to April 1st, 2024, 20:35 Police officers, we have discretion. 20:37 We swear an oath to preserve life, protect the public, and to uphold the law. 20:44 And so when we're out and about in our police duties and we see a crime, if we see something, we say something, or we do something, we act. 20:52 We don't ask instructions because we are guided by the law, by the Criminal Code of Canada and bylaws of the city and rules and regulations. 21:02 And if we see somebody breaching that, we have the autonomy and the discretion to act. 21:07 April 1st, 2024, under the Community Police Services Act, that has changed where we can still act immediately, but if we want to continue an investigation, we have to ask our supervisor permission. 21:20 Which... 21:21 could be very concerning. 21:23 Again, I don't want to speak to that. 21:24 I'll leave it at, you can all draw your own conclusions. Speaker 4
21:27 Let me speak to that, because I do want to speak to that. 21:29 So just so that everyone understands what Constable Grish is talking about. 21:32 And, you know, there's longstanding reasons for why police officers, individual officers, have the discretion to investigate whatever they want. 21:43 In that way, we have rule of law because it's not politicized. 21:47 So police officers in Canada... 21:50 tend to be very highly trained and they have the discretion and you have the discretion until April 21st, 2024. 21:56 If you thought that maybe a crime was being committed, you could investigate it and you didn't need to get permission. 22:04 So now the entire police force of Ontario has become less efficient because we've added a layer. 22:10 Now every officer has to spend the time going to a supervisor and every supervisor has to make a decision. 22:18 And 22:19 If something is politically inconvenient, such as COVID, they will nip any investigation in the bud. Speaker 1
22:32 What's happened in the tribunal that just finally concluded and is being appealed does send a strong message to all police officers in Canada because the case law that's been set right now carries over and 22:46 I encourage people to actually upload or download the March 25th, 2025 decision when I was actually found guilty because the tribunal officer actually spoke that, linked it to the concerns of me even questioning this, the political ramifications of such an investigation to be even considering that maybe the vaccinations caused harm to people. 23:13 So it's, but again, 23:17 it does send a strong message to all officers because this case can be used in other police tribunals. Speaker 4
23:24 Yeah, no, your case raises two questions. 23:29 It raises the question, it's just interesting because, as I say, I was involved in this other organization that was tasked to just preserving evidence for the future. 23:38 And are you aware of any single investigation into 23:45 crimes committed during COVID by any police force? Speaker 1
23:50 I'm not aware of any. Speaker 4
23:53 That's interesting. 23:54 And so I'll let... Sure. Speaker 2
23:59 I have a colleague in the room who is a former police officer. 24:03 I'm sure you want to ask some questions, Mr. Watts. Speaker 3
24:09 Thank you, Dean. 24:10 So thank you for your service, first of all, and thank you for... 24:14 being here and following your conscience doing what's right. 24:20 So just a couple of quick questions. 24:22 In Ontario, your tribunal is made up of whom? Speaker 1
24:29 My tribunal specifically was a retired superintendent of the Ottawa Police Service. Speaker 3
24:34 So you had one hearing officer? Speaker 1
24:35 One hearing officer and a former member of my own service, yes. Speaker 3
24:41 And when you had the... 24:44 conversation with the chief of police early on. 24:49 Who was that chief? 24:50 Is it still Sully? Speaker 1
24:51 That was Sully and Deputy Chief Ferguson was there as well. Speaker 3
24:55 Yes. 24:59 So when you were having these concerns, did any other detectives in your unit, the child unit, have a share of your concerns? Speaker 1
25:13 Yes, obviously, because it was about January 10th. 25:17 It's the officer, actually one of my fellow SACA detectives, that brought this concern up to me. 25:22 So I was not alone in this. Speaker 3
25:24 Are you aware of any instructions that went back from the hierarchy within Ottawa Police Service that directed those people, like those detectives, not to pursue those investigations? Speaker 1
25:37 I'm not aware of any. Speaker 3
25:40 You... 25:42 said a couple times that you found it very odd that there would be no autopsy on one of those deaths. Speaker 1
25:48 So the autopsy was completed, but the detective never reviewed it before concluding it as non-suspicious within 24 hours. 25:57 And that's just a preliminary autopsy. 25:59 So autopsies are typically conducted, and they are, like they must be on all, suiting on sudden unexpected deaths in infants. 26:08 But again, what's concerning for me is the fact that 26:12 the detectives in SACA were not, some of them were not completing these investigations. 26:20 And that was brought up in the tribunal. Speaker 3
26:26 Do you, I want to ask you a question, but I don't want you to answer it if it's going to put you in some jeopardy for your career. Speaker 1
26:35 Right, I understand. Speaker 3
26:36 So do you have a sense that 26:42 this is, as Mr. Buckley has indicated, I find it very odd that there'd be some pressure to not pursue a fulsome, complete investigation on anything. 26:59 But did you get a sense that there was some inconvenient truth being covered? 27:08 Or they didn't want the publicity? 27:09 Or 27:11 You know, or what, you know, what would have been the motivation behind, you know, the conversation of having you basically stand down from pursuing something? Speaker 1
27:24 Yes, and that would actually go back to September 9th, 2021. 27:27 I had sent out an email to our organization, initially for my chain of command all the way up the ranks, but also on what's called a miscellaneous board to all my colleagues. 27:37 I voiced some concerns there. 27:39 That email is actually very public. 27:41 So it got leaked out. Speaker 3
27:43 I guess it has to do with getting vaccinated. Speaker 1
27:46 That had to do with, yes. 27:47 And I just raised concerns that before anybody actually, that was at that time, all members were supposed to declare their status, their medical status, which again, as a police officer to get somebody else's medical status, we either need consent or warrant. 28:06 And that's how I addressed it. 28:07 I said, you know, and, and, 28:09 for all these mandates to be imposed. 28:13 It was a lengthy email, so that put, I guess that would have flagged me in the service with a certain group of people. 28:22 I received a lot of, many, many officers and civilians reached out to me after that, thanking me that they were not alone in their concerns over what was transpiring with the lockdowns and the looming mandates. 28:36 But that definitely, I think, put me on, and it came out in tribunal, 28:40 Some of the officers who testified after reading that email concluded that I'm a right-wing conspiracy theorist. 28:48 I was also called an anti-masker, an anti-vaxxer, and all of a sudden the names started flying around about who I was. 28:54 I was told by my sergeant to not talk about, and actually I received an email from my supervisor, my higher supervisor, to never discuss COVID in the SACA office. 29:06 So when these concerns came up with these 29:09 with the doubling, tripling of baby deaths, and with the two babies that had collapsed and died in their parents' arms, I was concerned who to go to. 29:19 But yeah, it was actually because I had that meeting scheduled, the town hall meeting, I thought, well, here we go. 29:26 I'm going to present it to the chief of police. Speaker 3
29:27 Did all these things transpire after Ottawa Police Service had put on, you know, an order or mandate for everybody to be vaccinated? Speaker 1
29:37 So the... 29:38 The email itself, no, that came out before the mandates. 29:41 Your email? 29:42 Yes, my email. 29:44 I sent that out a month. 29:46 It was at the end of October 2021 that Ottawa Police Service put in a mandate that all members had to be double vaccinated or they would be sent home by the 1st of February 2022. Speaker 3
30:03 So you painted a target on yourself? 30:06 I did. 30:06 That's how you feel? Speaker 1
30:08 I actually, I found it liberating because so many officers and members reached out that essentially we ended up just with the, like the react 19, we found each, we found each other that we're not alone and that, and it actually brought me hope that there are other members in our service that, that see it exactly that, you know, as I did. Speaker 3
30:34 Did anybody else in your service, um, 30:38 Were they disciplined for not taking the vaccine or lose their job as a result? Speaker 1
30:46 So members were, on February 1st, 2022, Ottawa Police Service members were sent home on leave without pay. 30:50 That was actually the CBC reported audit on that. 30:56 So yes, there were implications. Speaker 3
30:59 And what's surprising, I think, as MPs, many of our offices, if not all of our offices, would have had complaints from the public 31:08 who themselves are experiencing the same sort of friction with their employer where they're conflicted between, you know, you have to get the vaccinations or you are suspended. 31:20 And if you're suspended for length of time, you're going to lose your job basically. 31:23 And I mean, I know I received many of them, you know, I have a military base here by, you know, federal that they were, many of those people were struggling. 31:32 Some of them lost their jobs as a result and others. 31:35 So, you know, I am, 31:39 I am perplexed that, as I think Mr. Buckley alluded to previously on the other witness, that the reach of these mandates and what was going on had far-reaching impacts on multiple industries and services and public perception. 32:02 Are you receiving any sort of blowback from this other than 32:07 the recent decision, but from other members of the service. Speaker 1
32:12 Again, there's a select number of members that don't agree with me even pursuing for pleading not guilty and going through the tribunal process and the appeal that's going to be moving forward, I pray. 32:28 But again, it's a free country. 32:29 I believe in freedom. 32:30 We have a freedom to have that opinion. 32:32 At least I pray we do still. 32:35 And for me, I think from day one, what was most important for me, I wanted that conversation and communication. 32:41 That was all shut down. 32:43 And it was definitely shut down when people were sent home on leave without pay because we were ostracized. 32:48 There's a large population that were simply ostracized. 32:54 And it still happens to this day, unfortunately. Speaker 3
32:56 True. 32:57 So moving forward, how do, you know, your plan moving forward, I'm sure, 33:05 you know, will unfold as things do inside of play services and your skill sets. 33:10 We need to be rewarded for doing that. 33:13 But from a larger perspective, how do we get past the division that's occurred in organizations? 33:22 I mean, we have, it was mentioned earlier today, we have, you know, family members against family members in the divisions there inside of employers and employees, you know, 33:34 friends, employee to employee. 33:38 And there's division among people still about this issue. 33:41 And the name calling still exists if you, you know, even if you ask a question. 33:47 And, you know, how do we as a society, as legislators, how do we move forward to get past this? 33:57 Because I look back and I, when I saw, somebody mentioned SARS, 34:04 or H1N1 earlier. 34:05 Right. 34:06 You know, and you would know this from your policing background, there is emergency management protocols on everything, including a pandemic. Speaker 2
34:15 Absolutely. Speaker 3
34:16 And this government failed Canadians on how they handled the pandemic from day one, because they never involved the emergency management experts in it. 34:28 They didn't. 34:30 And so, I mean, again, 34:33 there's a lot of fingers to point at, you know, we can, we can blame a lot of people, but we have to move beyond this so that it doesn't happen again. 34:41 And we can, we can care for those who have been impacted by this negatively and, and get past the division. 34:48 How do you see it happening? Speaker 1
34:50 Well, I absolutely see this inquiry now, and thank you Dean Allison for bringing this forward. 34:54 I see this as a huge move forward that we're giving 35:00 people their voices back, to be able to speak and be heard. 35:04 Who's listening? 35:04 Well, right now we see it's a limited portion still, but by spreading the word and being kind about it. 35:11 I'm a person of very strong faith. 35:13 My faith in God is very strong, and I really lean to my faith in this. 35:18 And I always say, you know, not to compare myself to Jesus, but what would Jesus do, right? 35:22 So, and be kind, forgive, right? 35:26 And forgiveness is huge. 35:27 So I forgive the officers that dislike me. 35:30 I'm not angry with them. 35:32 I would love to sit down at a table with them and communicate. 35:34 I said that day one when I was brought back off my suspension in October 2022, I had a meeting with a couple of executives and I said, can we not just sit down at a table and talk? 35:49 No. 35:50 That was turned down. 35:51 So I think we can move forward now. 35:55 Going back to my case, I think what's important, I've repeated this in my testimony at the tribunal. 36:02 I've completed a couple affidavits, but there's one dated in January 2024. 36:08 I do believe a criminal investigation should be conducted. 36:12 It's stated right in my affidavit. 36:14 It's important to note that through the disclosure that came out, it's four and a half years. 36:19 So information has come out, information about these babies has come out through evidence that was presented at the tribunal. 36:26 Of those babies that passed in that timeframe, five of them, the causation of their deaths, those causes, they're all listed on Pfizer's 5.3.6 documents of side effects from the Pfizer vaccine. 36:46 It doesn't conclude that that's what 36:48 killed the babies, but further investigation must be done. 36:52 And this is what I've maintained. 36:55 I touched on it with my compelled interview with the Sergeant of Professional Standards, but in my affidavit, I again reiterated, given all the evidence, there's over 110 exhibits in my tribunal alone. 37:06 One of those exhibits is my 10 binders that I brought forward on a USB stick. 37:11 So I said, you know, there should be a criminal investigation here of criminal negligence. Speaker 3
37:20 For whom? 37:22 On whom? Speaker 1
37:23 That's where the investigate, follow the money. 37:25 I believe you follow the money and the evidence and where the evidence takes us. 37:28 Again, that's all we do as police officers. 37:31 We follow the evidence, but we don't ignore some stones just because they're prettier than others. Speaker 3
37:40 I noticed Mr. Drysdale shaking his head back there and nodding in agreement. 37:45 And I think they have some recommendations that I think fall in line 37:51 with what you're suggesting. 37:52 And I had a conversation with Mr. Buckley at the break about ways in which this inquiry doesn't get lost, the citizens' inquiry, their work doesn't get lost, and that we actually have some 38:17 some process moving forward to take the information and evidence that's been gathered. 38:22 And it's not about finding fault necessarily, but ensuring that we're gonna have another pandemic. 38:30 Guaranteed, we're gonna have another pandemic of some sort. 38:34 And let's not repeat again and learn from what the mistakes were made in the past. 38:40 And it's about a learning exercise, I think. 38:42 And now there is a need for justice. 38:46 I agree to that. 38:50 But I think there's a lot of justice to be done and not just to one individual. 38:58 Anyway, I'll leave it there. 39:00 I'll get off my soapbox. Speaker 2
39:02 We appreciate you being here. 39:04 This guy flew at a red eye overnight so he could be here to hang out with us. 39:08 We appreciate that. 39:09 Ms. Kirk, we thank you so much. 39:11 I didn't know we were going to get a chance to have you in. 39:13 This wasn't planned originally, but 39:15 We're so grateful that you were able to take the time. 39:18 We appreciate the stand you've taken. 39:21 Really, I think the point of what we've been trying to do is that we want to give people permission to talk about difficult things. 39:28 Really, that's what it ultimately boils down to. 39:30 We've lost the ability in society to talk about difficult things. 39:34 We've lost the ability to agree to disagree, right? 39:37 Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I hate you. 39:40 It doesn't mean that we can't ever discuss anything. 39:43 And we've got to get back to that. 39:44 And the only way we get back to that is by being able to talk about difficult things. 39:50 We've lost that ability. 39:51 And I see legislation coming down that continues to encroach on our freedoms, continues to encroach on censorship. 39:59 And all that legislation that's happened has just happened since COVID, where the first part of the bill is not bad. 40:05 It's probably well-intentioned. 40:07 The back end of the bill talks about more censorship, 40:11 More overreach, more government overreach. 40:13 So I think that we should be allowed to talk about difficult things. 40:16 And that's what we're doing. 40:18 We're having a conversation. 40:19 We're giving those that have been injured permission to speak publicly about things they have not been able to talk about. 40:27 And we need to do that on a whole bunch of different topics. 40:30 But the topic I think that we're here to talk about today is those that are injured and giving them a voice and being allowed to have them to have a conversation with family members. 40:41 with neighbors, with community members. 40:44 And so it starts here. 40:46 And you're part of that discussion. 40:48 And we thank you for taking a stand and for doing what you believe is right, because it's never really that easy, is it? Speaker 1
40:56 No, but if you, again, focus on the good and God will get us where we need to be. Speaker 2
41:02 Well, listen, we're a little over time and I have to always thank our interpreters. 41:06 These guys do an amazing job. 41:08 Thank you very much for what you've done. 41:10 to all the volunteers that are here working every day. 41:13 We want to thank you to all the people in the audience and everyone that's watching around the world. 41:18 Thank you for being with us on day three. 41:21 We have one more day. 41:22 It's hard to believe that we've been through three days already out of our four possible. 41:26 So with that, I'm going to end the meeting and we'll see everybody at 8.30. 41:31 Meeting's adjourned.